If [God] is all good, why do 20,000 children die every day in this world? Surely someone all good, would not let that many children die? So he is either not all good, or he is unable to help them so he is not all powerful..
Do you believe in a devil? If so why would a god "allow" him to exist? If he does, then again he is either not all good or not all powerful and cannot stop him or stop him from existing..
See how quickly cracks appear in even your most basic belief system?Here was my initial reaction to this comment, so bear with me: I must admit that I was a little put off at first. Was I supposed to abandon my faith simply on the basis of two issues that this person assumed I hadn't found answers to? Perhaps this person didn't really care to find answers to these questions but was simply trying to discredit believers in general and this blog in particular, upset merely by the fact that my belief system runs contrary to his/hers?
Also, as the comments progressed, I had the feeling that s/he was calling my character and level of intelligence into question solely as a result of me believing in God, as though only some half-wit would do something so audacious. You can see in subsequent comments how s/he and I attempted to iron some things out, and how in the end I realized that attempting to answer these questions isn't a bad thing. However, doing so just wasn't the intention of this blog. Let me explain.
I started this blog for reasons explained in the introductory post, and I hoped that people would read it so that any comments would not resort to making me feel as though I was being regarded as a second-rate human being for believing in God, for example by inferring that I am "brain washed by a cult" or that by believing in God I "may as well be believing in Santa Claus, except you are an adult". I wasn't expecting to be subjected to ad hominem attacks - to attacks on my character - and to attacks on my intelligence, but rather I had hoped to be asked to reasonably and intelligently discuss matters related to God.
But then I realized that perhaps this atheist has only ever encountered "religious" people, as s/he refers to them (perhaps not yet realizing that true Christianity is actually the anti-thesis and the greatest enemy of religion), who seem as though they are robotically brainwashed by how they act and live. Or maybe Christians (or those who claim to be) have looked down their noses at him/her and attacked his/her character as well. Maybe I was simply bearing the brunt of his/her discontent.
Although this person should not have assumed the same about me or done the same to me, I guess I can't blame him/her. What I realized is that s/he's probably never become acquainted with, let alone met, someone who believes in God like me yet with the integrity, character, and intelligence that those around me know I possess. It's easy to assume things about someone whose stuff you're only reading about online instead of getting to know them face-to-face. I'm also very well regarded by Christians and non-believers in my sphere of influence because I don't walk around with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I'm very real, and I don't walk around with my head in the clouds. In short, I'm very personable and don't speak with people as though I look like I was weaned on a pickle.
I also realized that to not answer those questions would lead this person to rightly assume that I lack integrity, character, and intelligence. Therefore, I am attempting to answer these questions for these reasons, but also since this person has never met "one single person who can logically answer those questions. Not a priest, not a born again Christian, not Mormons nor Jehovah Witnesses at the front door." However, I do not make this attempt with the illusion that an atheist will suddenly "see the light" regarding Jesus. This person him/herself has stated that s/he is "not someone looking for God".
So why should I bother answering these questions? Because I as a follower of Jesus need to be as open, caring, and transparent to non-believers as he was to all around him when he walked this earth. He is the example that sadly most Christians have failed to follow, and I've never wanted to be a part of that majority. If most Christians truly reflected the character of their Savior, their Messiah, then the atheist ranks on this planet would be almost non-existent because the love of God would be hugely apparent, since it is meant to be reflected through Christian believers. Sure, this person has implied that s/he really doesn't care to know the answers, which means that perhaps instead I'll either be mocked again as I was at first (but hopefully not) or s/he'll simply try to poke more holes into my faith that s/he cannot truly understand apart from that faith.
But maybe none of this will happen; maybe I'm assuming that this person will act exactly how I did as a hater of God for the first 22 years of my life, when I responded to any spiritual inquiries with venom and hatred (and all without objectively considering their viewpoint, by the way) that few non-believers have had the guts to express with a believer face-to-face. Anyhow, this is a chance I'm willing to take; my faith has and never will be shaken, so really I've got nothing to lose, and maybe it will actually be somewhat informative to this and other atheists/agnostics who stumble across this blog. At the very least, these are good questions that deserve attempts at answers - hey, I wondered about them as well at one time - and hopefully the responses are respectful and reasonable even if someone still disagrees with them.
So here's my approach. In this post, I've decided I'm not going to re-invent the wheel. These questions have been addressed somewhat directly or indirectly in this blog. So first, do a search by blog title or keyword for the items of concern, such as "brainwashing" or "atheists" or "Satan" or "devil".
Second, search online for other sources that will answer these questions, because they've been asked and answered ad nauseum throughout the ages. I simply feel I don't need to try to answer them myself at this point if others have done so already.
But beware: not all people who claim to represent God truly represent the God of the Bible, the one true God. So please avoid anyone who has violated the warning of Revelation chapter 22, verses 18-19 like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have: they have tweaked and even re-written the Bible to make God fit their mold, to suit their twisted agendas. They are cults in the truest sense of the word, and therefore their answers to these questions will be misinformed and intended to mislead. In fact, any religious movement or self-proclaimed "faith" that has rejected Jesus and therefore the Bible is also not a good source for information (ex. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.). I've never found their explanations on such issues to be reputable or even helpful because they lack a true understanding of such issues by, for example, their removal of Jesus from the equation.
Instead, start with organizations like the Christian Research Institute (the best cult-busting organization in existence!), and search for messages from the likes of Charles Stanley and Chuck Swindoll. I'm sorry, but answers to these questions are only best addressed from a Biblical perspective (since these questions are about God and the devil), so you need to be open-minded about this no matter how uncomfortable this may be!
Now I won't leave you totally hanging. Here are a few links to answers to the above (or similar) questions to get you started. Where you go from here is up to you:
If [God] is all good, why do 20,000 children die every day in this world?
Do you believe in a devil? If so why would a god "allow" him to exist?
Some of these responses are written from Christians to Christians, but bear with them as you read them. Don't get upset, don't get insulted - just take them for what they are. In some cases, some answers to the specific questions are sprinkled throughout various parts of the articles.
Third, these questions do not have cut-and-dried, simple answers. In fact, for me these answers only came after several years of gaining a deep understanding of God through reading my Bible, listening to reputable (not just any) Bible teachers in person and on the radio (this involved me sorting the reputable from the pseudo-biblical and cultic teachings), and through asking God to reveal his truths to me. Even if I can refer you to cut-and-dried attempts at answers, they'll probably seem non-sensical without a solid background of walking with God.
So there you go! Now, if you're assuming that this is a cop-out on my part, I hope you will do your due diligence and first research these things more for yourself. Then, if you really would like me to answer them from my perspective, in my own words that I believe God is revealing to me, please leave me a comment to that effect and I will create a new post.
BUT PLEASE, if your desire is not to really seek to understand God more but rather to try to mock me, my faith, or to just keep asking questions for the sake of mockery and/or to waste my time and energy, then I will no longer be answering such questions.
Again, I intended this blog to share what I believe God has laid upon my heart over the years for the benefit of believers and non-believers seeking to understand God more. And I will return strictly to this agenda if I sense that my character is being subjected to attack or if my faith is being mocked in a disrespectful fashion. I am asking you to hold to the same level of integrity that I have hopefully also held to, and I believe this is an absolutely fair and reasonable request.
I just want to start with:
ReplyDeletea) I have no intention to insult your intelligence or to mock you or your belief system in any way. I never did - I was telling you how "your belief system" appears to Atheists.
b) An Atheists desire is NEVER to seek to understand God - for us there is no such being. What we seek to understand is how people in this day and age can still worship such a mythological (from our perspective) being.
Let me back up a bit - my purpose on posting to your blog, was with the hope that you would help shed some light on "why you can believe" in what you do.
I posted my questions because we cannot see how people of faith can see through these obvious issues.
I read the links you supplied and none of them really give any answers. Its all just shrouded in references (mostly biblical) which is like someone trying to defend the outcome of his experiment with only HIS data - its invalid.
Here is an example of a scary answer in one of those links:
"There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.
Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.
As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so."
That is just scary - I am not as moral as the supposed God is, yet I would never ever place the sins of others onto them..that is plain wrong. Can you not see why this sort of talk is at the very least a bit odd?
Also in your post you state that only Christianity is "right" and all other religions changed the bible and so are "wrong" - but you have no idea how many changes were ever made to the original bible ( or the new testament for that matter). I agree that a religion created one hundred years is laughable however.
I sense from your post that you have no desire to really question some of the things I brought up - you want to believe (need to?) so badly that nothing I say would ever make you question (I am not saying doubt - but question) some inconsistencies in the Christian belief system.
So I will post no more. I will reserve my religious debates for those unlucky enough to ring my doorbell ;)
Once again, I appreciate the fact that you're leaving comments about these issues. I have absolutely no problem with that, especially when you've done so in a respectful manner. But I'd like to re-iterate a few things that I've mentioned thus far.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, remember that I was once also on the non-believing side of the fence. I can guarantee that I’ve had every question about God that you’ve had, including ones that I still do. As for the "still do" part, I realize that me as a finite being trying to fully understand an infinite God is nonsensical. I cannot ever (on this side of eternity) fully know or understand who he is or why he does what he does. But just because I can't put God in a box or figure him out doesn't mean that he’s not to be believed, especially when he's provided so much evidence of his existence to me and millions of other Christians past, present, and future. I can assure you that there is far more proof of God than of Santa Claus!
Faith involves choosing to believe in the unseen, and I've learned that God chooses to reveal things about himself to those with such faith. And whenever a believer tries to explain the things of God to a skeptic, there's often misunderstanding because both people see things from a totally opposite perspective. One part of the Bible even mentions how when Christians try to preach, it's a "stumbling block" to the Jews and to everyone else it's "foolishness". I say all this because it doesn't surprise me in the least that the explanations I referred you to make little sense. Non-believers cannot possibly understand the things of God because they haven't submitted their lives to God, and therefore God doesn't owe them an explanation or he confuses their understanding. I really don't know how to state this any other way!
You also mentioned that it seems as though I have "no desire to really question some of the things I brought up". However, I was quite certain that I mentioned how I once did until God revealed answers to me. I have absolutely no reservations about posting my own take on any questions you might have. Yes, I will make some biblical references, but I'll also share what I believe what God has placed upon my heart as well and write straight from the heart, in more ‘rational’ terms according to your perspective.
Lastly, as for reserving religious debates for those who ring your doorbell, don't waste your time. Even I don't open the door to JWs or Mormons. Their agenda is not to care about you, but to get a notch on their belt for sucking people into their system of false teachings. You might argue that anyone - even me - who claims to believe in God is attempting the same thing. The difference between them and me is that JWs and Mormons, because they've corrupted scripture and even written their own (the JW "translation" of the Bible has been a confirmed joke by believing and non-believing scholars alike), cannot give you an accurate depiction of God because their God is not the same one as mine, although they claim the contrary. So if you're seeking answers, continue to give guys like me a shot, or else look elsewhere within Christianity. I know I sound very exclusivistic (if that's a word!), but frankly no body of scripture has ever held up to scrutiny like the Bible has, which is why I place my entire stock in it. And I speak from the perspective of someone who has held it up to scrutiny myself.
I wouldn't blame you if you do look elsewhere, seeing how I probably haven't been much help to this point. But do know that I still want to try to explain how a weirdo like me can believe in some being called God! And hey, for you some of it’s probably good for a laugh anyhow. So keep in touch as you see fit, and in the meantime see if any of my other posts make any shred of sense concerning these things.
Again I give you credit as perhaps the most civil and level headed Christian I have ever met (likely because you do not follow religion as much as you are a deist). Lets face it, neither or us will ever concede anything (in our belief systems). But I do applaud the way in which you express your ideas and thoughts, good luck in the future.
ReplyDeleteHave either of you read or heard of the Author, Lee Strobel. He is a journalist that has written a seris of books. The first two I recommend purely as a resource of reading for added thought to these issues posted above. Take them and read them as you feel. But I challenge that if you start finish them so that you have full perspective. This could create some good conversation if the willingness is there. I recommend Strobel's Case for Christ and Case for Faith.
ReplyDeleteHi Barry, and welcome to the discussion, although I think that The Atheist has decided to bow out for good. I sincerely wish him/her all the best.
ReplyDeleteAs for Lee Stroebel, I read The Case For Christ a few years back. What impressed me most about it was the volume of extra-biblical support for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. I was frankly blown away. I appreciated his examination from various perspectives: legal, historical, medical, etc. as well as the diversity of respected experts in their fields interviewed/cited. One of the most highly recommended resources about Jesus Christ outside the Bible that I can think of, and interesting that it was written by a former professing atheist. (For the record, I by no means write this latter statement with any hint of intent directed toward The Atheist. I write it only for the sake of interest to others who might read it.)
Thanks, Barry, for bringing these resources to peoples' attention.
I have read (most) of the first two (though it was a few years back now) - couldn't finish as there was nothing in there that convinced me of anything and I tired of reading it.
ReplyDeleteThis sums up most of what I felt:
http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/strobel.htm
and here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel.html
which is also referenced from the first article as well.
ok, that is Case for Christ but what about Case for Faith?
ReplyDelete